R12 was once used in many air conditioning units as a refrigerant or cooling agent. R134a compressors are substituted as new to retrofit the R12 system compressor part numbers with different height sealing washers. It cycles on off in med (or low for that matter)Gotta tell ya. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. Besides R134a there are some other refrigerants that are approved to replace R12 and there is a long list of refrigerants that are not approved. You can use this space to go into a little more detail about your company. The old compressor used R12 and the new unit will be R134a. Lets take you through the advantages, disadvantages, and differences of these two refrigerants a detailed comparison including R12 vs R134a performance. Blows pretty hard on full. hardly noticable. R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. Warning: "continue" targeting switch is equivalent to "break".Did you mean to use "continue 2"? I'm going to check the condensor is way clean too. Just had knee surgery yesterday, so I"M not exactly hopping around too well. In short, NO! In practice this means that the car can overheat and the aux fan will stay off! how to get to disney springs from boardwalk / bb dakota plaid jacket canada / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Can I order a valve based on the original eaton number? If the water valve is not closing all the way you will have re-heating of the cabin air.The cabin blower was not exactly a powerhouse - it was rated at 200w. I've got a ball valve I'm going to put in the coolant line before the coolant goes through the firewall to the core. Then, subtract that result by 0.25 pounds to get the proper amount of R134a charge. Some say that a chemical reaction can harm the A/C very badly as R134a reacts with mineral oil in some way. In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was R134a. Expansion Valves Catalog E-1, July 2012. Yes, the 50F diff (160-110F) on the condenser was at idle, and ambient was about 90F. But, if your car lacks enough condenser and you have many 100+ degree days then you may want to stick either increase air flow, add another condenser as we mentioned in The Mr. Ice Project or stick with R12. Safety: R134a is safe to use as its non-flammable and cant explode. Whenever its exposed to the environment, it changes to a gas. Ensure you contact a professional mechanic to do the work for you so you dont end up incurring more costs for yourself. The AC usually does not work at all. A/C receiver difference between R12 and R134a? You'll want the expansion valve matched to whatever refrigerant you're using. 1) Look Here at the available sizes of PF condensors.2) Go look at your vehicle's condensor & mounting. Concentration level: The R134a vapor dilutes the oxygen concentration in the air to a low level, thereby causing harm. I know this is bad, etc, and deposits on the metal can act as insulators. look at the difference! R1234yf is more environmentally friendly and has a global warming potential of 4. The safe high side pressures are determined with a PT (pressures and temperatures) chart. we convert older systems where i work all the time and they work fine. Before R12 was replaced with R134a in 1995, it was mostly used in trucks and cars. Big . A final difference is that most (though not all) R-1234yf cars will have a Suction Line Heat Exchanger. Thanks so much Bohica - you've save me many more hours of fruitless speculation. is good, then I should be looking elsewhere? The crossover point is approximately at 64F. A York oil capacity is listed as "6.5 to 9.6 ounces". R134a refrigerant is lighter than R12. It didn't seem too dirty though - I don't think it is the problem, but I could be wrong. June 21, 2022 difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. . Maybe a jerky locker.I cleaned the condensor with the off the shelf ac cleaner stuff from Home Depot that I used on my home evaporator. Bohica, I appreciate your help with this. R134a requires the use of synthetic oil! Compatible with multiple applications: The major reason for the introduction of R134a was to replace R12, so it functions perfectly in the same range of applications like rotary, screw, and centrifugal compressors for air conditioning and refrigeration. If your compressor requires replacement or its seals and o-rings need to be replaced due to leakage, it would be wise at this time to either obtain a compressor that has o-rings and seals that are compatible with R134a or have your unit re-manufactured with compatible components. They have no moving parts. The ARPA Zone/Open Membership Discussion Forums. At this time you can still find R12, but, because it is no longer produced, availability is limited to current inventories and the price per pound is greater than R134a. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). R134a has an ozone depletion potential of 0, implying that it has a slight effect on the ozone layer. The pressure at low temperatures is nearly the same between 12 and 134a. What is needed? The oil used in R12 and R134a are different and not compatible. Theres no doubt that R12 refrigerant is one of the first compounds manufactured for the air conditioning and refrigeration world, but it had to be banned. This may be the source of your oil confusion. Therefore, the higher the factor of the chemical (compound), the greater its effect on global warming. . Plus, not releasing the chemical into the air is morally justifiable. However, R134a is better than R12. 4.R404A R134a increased mass transfer resistance to reduce the transmission chamber heat coefficient, while R507 heat transfer coefficient is higher than R404A. link to How to cut off a Catalytic Converter. You can also check the Aux fan in your case. In 1994 they switched from R-12 to R-134a. By using a black light the dye will glow in areas where oil leaks are visible. 5. "Jerky Locker" LMAO I am using that one in the future!Florida = BUGS! We sometimes use a relay switched from the compressor clutch to run fans. So if the TXV is OK, and the too much oil situation is not a big problem, then I wonder why the compressor is switching off after about 15 minutes of cooling? Autor de l'entrada Per ; Data de l'entrada calexico west port of entry hours; 12 month libor rate 2021 a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve a difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve ). Related products. With that said, I would source the TXV from another source such as NAPA just to avoid any problems. Most vehicles manufactured before 1993 have the R12 A/C system. There is only a temperature switch on these cars as far as I recall, and it just switches on the aux fan. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. By after changing just about everything, he got what was termed, satisfactory cooling. Is it exponential, squared? The bad thing is I don't know what to do about it. We've updated our forums!Click here to visit the new forum, Year: 1983Make: MercedesModel: 240DEngine Size: 2.4Refrigerant Type: R12Ambient Temp: 90Pressure Low: 35Pressure High: ?Country of Origin: United States, Hi, this is my first post, so please take it easy on the noob. I bought a relay to put on it connected to the compressor clutch. A capacity curve is shown in figure 2 for relative capacity of R134a vs. R12 for evaporating temperatures from 0F to 50F. Its among the greenhouse gases and will keep adding the current problem of heat not leaving the earths atmosphere. The global warming potential of R134a is 1430. . About four or five years ago, I guy with an MB came here with the same problem, that tread was over six pages long. Like say half a can or so recharge come springtime warm weather or something. Recovery & flushing is the only way out of an oil overcharge in your vehicle.B. R12 and R22 are both now banned by the EPA in the United States. If liquid refrigerant were to exit the evaporator. The cure is to use the newer R134a compressors is sealing washers that are different thickness. -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Bohica, You say the drop in performance is not linear with too much oil. The catalytic converter is an essential component of your car's emission system that helps save the environment from harmful emissions. GWP is a measurement of Greenhouse Gases and their effect on Global Warming. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. R-134A has a slightly lower pressure at evaporator temperatures (30-40 degrees), but R-134a also has a much higher pressure at condenser temperatures (120-150 degrees). and he synthesized R-134a in 1936, 5 years after R-12 was . Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site. All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. The substitute that we used for R-12 was the new HFC called R-134a. My turn to LOL - greasiesel! Als nostres webs oferimOne Piece,Doctor Who,Torchwood, El Detectiu ConaniSlam Dunkdoblats en catal. Rules governing changing from the former to the latter differ between countries. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. AFAIK, there is no clutch on the engine fan on the 240D. The car never overheats, if that has any import. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. Why wait for 200f on the engine coolant to start the fan? So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. I cleaned the evap as best I could, if that is what you are getting at. Next I'll jumper the aux fan. And yes - expansion valves sometimes need replacing if they are sticky - but a proper AC flush should eliminate the need for a new one if it's already in good condition. Boiling Point: R134a refrigerants boiling point is -26.3C (-15.34F). 37 in 2005 tacoma, R134A. Using R134a requires that Polyolester (POE) lubricant must be used in the compressor. If you have a York, and it is equipped with service valves, you can check & adjust the oil level without discharging the system. If you still find it difficult to use R134a in a home AC system, you can check out a comparison of R12 vs R134a fittings to know the refrigerant that best fits the AC system. Its not that difficult but the procedures of evacuation, charging and testing should be done by a licensed a/c technician that is experienced with R134a and your particular car. Discussion in 'Technical' started by Jsarnold, May 25, 2012. This is not to say that one of these small retro-fit kits cant be used, however to be used wisely. . On the other hand, R12 has a global warming potential of 10,910. The condensor airflow drops off as the fan clutch dies slowly. The Main change in the system is the expansion valve. All fans must work at 100% of the OEM rating. With R12 you use to check to see if the site glass was full, if it had bubbles it meant you had a low charge. The general practice of charging the system with 15% less refrigerant adds to the thermal deficiency of R134a. R12 and R134 are of different chemistry. Get to the point where I can walk without crutches2. So to keep things simple and to avoid controversy and politics we have R134a. This is an electronic tool that sucks in air through a tube and across a sensor. This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. And by matching the correct amount of R134a to use in a given vehicle, correcting the superheat of the expansion valve (if necessary), you can in some manner nearly balance or match the amount of heat drawn out by the evaporator and released by the condenser. So, instead of using R12, other better options include R401b, R134a, R401a, etc. Read on for more information about using automotive r134a in a refrigerator and vice versa. R12 is CFC: Even though R12 is one of the most commonly used refrigerants, it is CFC. Jun 19, 2007. ambulance tailgate conversion Your decision could be made based on economics, environmental concerns, or both. This allows the refrigerant in the condenser to be void of oil particles. The system has been previously converted to R-134a. I'm not sure. When I compare parts, 93 uses one part number and 94 has a different part number. Large temperature difference between expansion valve inlet and outlet oReplace expansion valve Air . A good T/C, clamped to the line & insulated gives a repeatable measurement of the tube. Below are the major differences between R134a and R12: The chemical composition of R12 and R134a differ. An extra half ounce? Given two identical vehicles, each with the same weighted amount of refrigerant, the vehicle with the R134a has the capability to remove more heat (measured in btus) from the vehicle than the same type of vehicle using the same amount of R12. Reattach the hose lines using new R134a compatible o-rings, lightly lubricate with compressor oil. You will be fine with a 134a-compatible TXV running R12. I had to vaccum the system for 2 hours and recharge 4 oz of PAG oil plus 36 oz of 134A freon (3 cans). ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. The oil used in R12 systems is not compatible with R134a refrigerant. Super heats are so close, it should not be a major concern.-------------------------The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. Recomanem consultar les pgines web de Xarxa Catal per veure tota la nostra oferta. That's a lot isn't it? It's helluva humid and hot here in north florida, and I drive around all day for my job. Very interesting! So the steps involved are cleaning out the old oil, replacing all the O-rings, replacing the dryer, replacing the expansion valve, and converting the high and low side connectors from Schrader to quick connect valves. This is the part that controls the system pressures. The larger line at the expansion valve is the suction line. Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. With new R12 no longer being manufactured, the market price soared to $100/pound. Safe but sorry! Lasers don't do well on vent temps, a stick thermometer is better in that application. Inasmuch as R134a has a global warming potential thats over 1000 times more threatening than carbon dioxide, its better than R12. These two refrigerants are the older types and are not used in newer refrigeration and air conditioning systems. of coiled cap tube on VCR system with R134a. Remember, being aluminum, they lower the temps better, and do not pass off as much heat to the radiator, which then makes it's job easier and lowers underhood temps (besides lowering vent temps inside the car). This chart has a column of ambient (outside) air temperatures on one side and a corresponding range of high side pressures on the other side. Post photos, respond to polls and access other special features. The major reason for the replacement of R12 with R134a was to curb future greenhouse effects. R134a. The best oil that runs well with R134a is PAG oil or Polyalkylene Glycol. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. R134a is NOT less efficient than R12 Actually R134a is more efficient. The only difference I can imagine would be the recharge connection. A. Pressure/temperature plot of R134a vs. R12 is shown in figure 1. R134a systems operate at higher discharge-side pressures than R12, which can cause compressor seals to leak. had writing on the side that said R134a. Rich Membership Chairman Using R134a in an R12 system will cause the oil not to move with the refrigerant, causing a system failure and probably won't even cool the system well, if at all. You should keep in mind that recharging your air conditioner improperly could result in more serious damage. If there is no pusher fan, and you have the room, put one in. If your a/c system is empty/low on refrigerant, if your system has a leak or if you need to open the system, then now is the time to decide which refrigerant you want to use. The P H and T cond,sat of the HR12 at a T oa of 40 C were higher than that of the R134a, resulting in a higher P e than that for the R134a. That is for the compressor, drier, expansion valve and condenser. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Statisicaly your friend was lucky. In most cases, the systems used have varied components, designs, and service ports. This would become an expensive investment for a repair or service station to have unique dedicated equipment for every type of alternative refrigerant. Bad Car A/C Expansion Valve Symptoms. Since 2010, all home AC systems manufactured use a refrigerant like R134a that has zero ozone depletion potential (ODP). Before landing on the debate of R134 vs R12 you should know that both R134a and R12 are AC refrigerants types used in refrigeration and air conditioning systems. In more serious, it could result in cardiac irregularities or death. I don't believe it is but I had a service guy tell me it needs to be done. You can spend long evenings reading about the differences between the two refrigerants. 4) Inconsistent Airflow. I don't think it has any air dams or seals, I'll check to make sure. Still, I have some simple green, so may as well give it a go. 5. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. of refrigerant insulation tape. It is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and fluorine. Whether R134a performs as well as R12 in any given a/c system depends upon system components and the amount of R134a used. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. Existing technology: R134a has been in use in the refrigeration industry for very many years, and theres so much information about the safe use of the product. The best replacement for R134a is R1234yf, while R12 refrigerant replacement was R134a. July 3, 2022July 3, 2022. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. Add to cart. Also, if you want to know what happens if you put R134a in an R12 system, you should first confirm if the R12 system can be replaced or if the refrigerants can be mixed. The oil is spread all over your system when it is at rest. But R22 is almost equally damaging. Superheat you can consider to be the additional amount of heat. At least you do not have 16 ounces in there ( yup seen it before).For now, straighten all of the fins that you can, clean the condensor well, and re-test with the aux fan running. R-134a can actually cool better than R-12 in a well designed R-134a system as it has better thermoconductive properties, but all the high pressure issues have to be addressed.But even when these cars were brand new, didn't cool worth a damned, recall almost dying in one in Las Vegas at the time, but a good way to lose weight with gallons of perspiration pouring out, just don't let that drip on the seats, that is inappropriate. Theres no problem with using R134a in a home air conditioning system because it is a hydrofluorocarbon that doesnt cause environmental harm. Crap! Miscibility with oil: R12 can be mixed with the compressor oil no matter the operating condition. Could that be screwing up the systems performance?Anyway, when I installed the system, the new TXV (is that short for expansion valve?) The sticker typically has a place to note the amount of refrigerant used, the type of oil and amount of oil, the technicians sign off or name and the date of the conversion. These differences in the valve size can be attributed to the correlation of the cooling capacity with the enthalpy difference and the mass flow, which in . Unfortunately, the R12 refrigerant doesnt always blow cold air. R12 is used in several applications like low temperature, medium temperature, and high-temperature applications. That way I will have reduced the oil by about 1/3 (assuming the oil is mixed evenly through the system). For instance you can evacuate FRIGC FR-12 into a refrigerant recovery bottle that has R134a in it or visa versa. This leads me to labor over every small decision. R134a and water have the same abilities to change the state but R134a can do this more rapidly and at a much lower temperature than water. You can use the R134a retrofit capacity chart for this purpose. The global warming potential measures the amount of heat trapped by any gas compared to the amount of heat trapped by the same amount of carbon dioxide. Until 1995, most cars with air conditioning used R-12 Freon refrigerant which has shown to have an environmental impact. I dont know why the cost difference between compressors is so huge, though. It won't be optimal, though. What effect would it have on performance, if any?At the moment, the ac is acting up - will work fine for about 15 minutes and then slowly the vent temperatures rise until the compressor switches off. To bless the system the technician should attach a R134a sticker somewhere in the engine compartment to note the car is using R134a. The approval is very legal one, governed by the U.S. EPA. In addition, R134a refrigerants are not only used in auto air conditioners, they can be used in freezers, aerosol cans, and refrigerators. For instance at 25 F the pressure of R-12 is 24.6 PSI and the pressure of R-134a is 22.1 PSI. Nice to use new gadgets! A vacuum pump, a refrigerant recover system, quality service gauge set with both low and high side gagues, and much more besides the lessons to learn what to do and what not to do. compressor, condenser, evaporator and expansion valve are specifically designed for use with R134a. When the ambient air temps get above 80F the gauge readings can run a bit higher on the high side and lower on the low side when using R134a. Hot coolant migrates up through the core by convection (is that the word? Not going to mess up your 'do, but you can feel it. Is there more info needed?THanks -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Paul:I had to dig a bit deeper - MB made several running changes in the 1983 123'sThere are actually 4 different circuit diagrams for the A/C system that year - just for your 123.123 I found the R4 reference, and it should have 170 Ml of oil in the system.Your aux fan should run at the ambients you listed. Bookmarks: Digg; del . Quick View. If it splashes inside the eye, it could lead to a serious eye problem. . This means that it has a high potential of causing depletion to the ozone layer. The OEM spec is 2300 rpm @ 12.6v (engine stopped fully charged battery). Not osmosis, but you know what I mean). Then I'll put the ball valve in on the coolant and test it and see what we have. 4) Repeat step 2, making sure it will fit. There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. R404a for freezing of product. Mine was 61, so the system is not working as it is supposed to. system of 0.33 TR and refrigerant used was R12. Components Coils, Heaters, Motors, etc. Recharge the compressor with a/c ester oil and a tracer dye. R134a vs R12 refrigerant? R134a refrigerant is about 10% less efficient in moving heat than R12! It slowly gets warmer and warmer in the car, even at highway speeds. It is mixed with the freon for the most part, and does accumulate in all components in small amounts. We consider the the various types alternative refrigerants that are illegal or not approved to be in two sectors: non-flammables and flammables. I just got some hi/lo side gauges so I'm going to take readings, if they are needed. absorb by the evaporator to insure all liquid refrigerant entering the evaporator. We suggest dumping the old refrigerant oil in a clean container and inspect the oil for sludge or waxing (old oil that has gelled) and contamination (metal particles). The first vehicle that used the R1234yf refrigerant was the 2013 Cadillac XTS. 4 Stars & Up & Up; 3 Stars & Up & Up; 2 Stars & Up . There are other refrigerants: some of which may work, some of which dont work, some of which will destroy your a/c system and some of which are dangerous. I've done the FSM test and with 81F ambient, the vent should be 50F. Besides, its technology has been tested and trusted. If you're getting a R134a compressor, might as well finish the job - replace the receiver/dryer, flush everything else, and convert to R134a anyhow. R134a and R12 are among the most popular types of refrigerants. Replied by Rich928 on topic R12 or R134a. $21 . (On firewall where A/C lines go into cab.) They would then make short "jumper hoses" to connect to the existing stock hoses, refit your old fan if there is a "pusher" fan, and recharge to specs. Though you can purchase 12 or 16 ounce cans of R134a from local retailers it is very difficult to measure out the correct amount into your system. bokoen1 hoi4 the great purge / meryl and maks dancing with the stars / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. The newer valves and switches will work with both refrigerants. Stay home and grill your own steaks and stir your own martini. _____ 2012 E350 2006 Callaway SC560 . Osuagwu Solomon is a certified mechanic with over a decade of experience in the mechanic garage, and he has over five years of experience in the writing industry. Besides, R134a refrigerant was manufactured after R12 was banned to help reduce the harshness of the old chemical (R12) on the ozone layer. However, if it is taken close to a fire flame or any electrical heating element, it disintegrates into toxic products. If your cars system has a sufficient condenser design and air flow to expel the greater amount of heat extracted by R134a, then by all means you should convert over when the time comes. 30 deg is pretty coldSystems generally run between 40 and 43 deg. and an evaporator core and expansion valve that are optimized for R134a . I have one can left, so maybe a plan can be made. It will work and there will be very little, in any difference in performance.As Chick stated, the difference is only the gas used in the sensor tube. Energy usage: R134a is less efficient in cooling compared to R12. I'm just trying to help you avoid headaches in the long run. 3 ounces? A/C Expansion Valve Replacement Cost. In large application systems, the vapor density of this refrigerant is usually high.

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