, Oh... and this is a closing tag for my comment. Consider the case of a complex regular expression: not everyone can glance at one of those monsters and immediately understand exactly what it does. I've been checking through a friend's writing for about a year now and, yes, at times the editing feels like a chore. extra interpretation from the readers. Then I don't want to hear about you ever complaining about something like IE not following the standards. i.e. Share. Probably not. That is true. More Login. I went too the store. Some are grammar nazis. The company started in co-founder John Warnock's garage in 1982, and was named after the Adobe Creek which ran behind Warnock's home, offering pioneering capabilities in "What you see is what you get" (or WYSIWYG) desktop publishing. Punctuation, like apostrophes, and proper capitalization increases readability. She says, "Dest". Yes, Slashdot is basically a glorified Blog and not a high-brow newspaper. Oh snap. It is entirely dependent on what directory the code is executing in. Having been born the son of a man whose idea of a good hobby is proof-reading the Encyclopedia Britannica, I'm afraid I have to differ with you. Not everyline, as teachers say it should be done. What larger goal are you accomplishing? And get off my lawn!) Auditioning for American Idol without being able to carry a tune gets you laughed off the stage. Unless you and I are very different, as a fluent reader of English, you don't read word-by-word, seeing only one word at a time. Dammit, the parent post needs another couple of Funny (because it's true) mods. For all intents and purposes, that is the exact same sentance. as you describe, I'm certain there would be a lot of useless comments. Code should read easy In the end, we stare at your code and ask, simply: What the freak is going on here?!?!? The post focuses on a single detail: the author calls Ogg a "proprietary format". OpenZFS Removed Offensive Terminology From Its Code, GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology, 'If Everyone Hates Object-Oriented Programming, Why Is It Still So Widely Spread? Does this mean you have to do this? It involved saving the current palette when the window gained focus, and then restoring it when the window lost focus. It can be hard enough for me to keep track of the interactions of the algorithms even when I'm designing them on paper; translate them into code, and the result is not at all trivial. On the Subject of Slashdot Article Formatting, Re:[incorrect] spelling is for the weak minded. What is the purpose of this code? You made an excellent point and then completely undermined it by not following your own advice. Back before UML was a common thing, I used to 'write' my code in comments and stubs, as a design. What's on your mind? The argument that spelling doesn't matter is also the argument that asking callers to wait in a queue is fine, and when they get to a human being, it's okay if the person they want to speak to is only in on Thursdays, and would they mind calling back then? It is only some types of comments that are unnecessary. This discussion has been archived. I tried a few other ways*, but didn't like them: they weren't readable e. // I guess I should have used one-liners. 1. I do think its important, although i can usually figure out what is meant. That's a real shame. I work on research code that does...significantly complicated things. The question you ask is, why should we care? Score: 5. And, might I add, that you used a very appropriate analogy for this venue. not "constistently" and "grammer". Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? I probably make many more spelling mistakes than actual grammer mistakes, but regardless I usually don't notice them in others written material as well. I wonder if it's the case that they're not very good readers. I couldn't find any special options on his command card (the first card in the deck that specified how the deck was to be processed; I finally realized that every other line was a blank comment line. And it is the *why* that is the most important. The idea of a comment is to explain. Norbert Norbert. Specifications of Intuit's .QFX Format? 8. 1. Some of us are neither, but still have problems parsing bad English. Sad that I know this but do a "postcode lookup" DT10 1NA, with a house number of 1 and you'll find that there are 3 distinct properties.... Its this sort of thing that makes software almost work! Forgot the season. is a social news website that originally billed itself as "News for Nerds. After I could read through the code as a narrative of what my app/service/dll did, I would actually fill in the stubs to make it work. Well...aside from the excellent reasons you mentioned in your post...Slashdot subscribers have one DAMN GOOD reason for caring and making a big deal about it. If there is something wrong with the site, rather than blowing it off as you just did Taco, you should respect the fact that you have an obligation to your paying customers (of which I am not I admit) to make corrections and improve the quality of the site. Even if your spelling is impeccable, other grammatical niceties should be observed as well. We all, even the best readers among us, can see this at work when it comes to 3L1T3-5P34K: it's all one massive typo anyway, When I'm reading something and I come across a spelling or grammatical error, it's not just that I mis-parse the sentence, but the error grabs my attention and distracts me from what the sentence means to how the sentence is constructed. I would contend that the comment should be "make a cake". Well said! I prefer function header comments which describe what the piece of code as whole does. The virtual format certainly has its advantage -- accessibility being at the top of the list. . The new serial numbers will initially be 10 characters, the company indicated. I know that there's usually at least one error that I miss, which is why I always get someone else to check through important documents and stuff before I send or print them. Full Abbreviated Hidden /Sea. ./thisfile.txt is not always equivalent to /thisfile.txt. What is its justification for existance? // If you can't follow this, go ask CowboyNeal. … Of the 12 articles I've submitted to slashdot, the 3 that were accepted were posted almost verbatim -- I actually think it was because I left the editor with a good direction and a good article at link's end. Yeah ./ means the directory you're currently in. American English speakers will get tripped up over "Apple are thinking of introducing a new iMac." And it is nice if an article has better spelling and typing. Good comments ought use good English. Comments owned by the poster. I once read that a good comment will appear on every conditional branch or loop, and a good comment will also state the INTENTION for doing something, rather than what is actually being done (because the programmer can usually figure out what is being done). Writing is about communication, and those errors are just barriers to it -- a few of them, and I might not understand you; too many, and I won't even bother trying. We are not responsible for them in any way. Please create an account to participate in the Slashdot moderation system. Don't hide important information into comments, give it its own status. If you need to record audio, it can be enabled with the new sysctl variable. Humans can scan through text very quickly because while the eye is scanning one word you're parsing the sentence from a few words before and thinking about the meaning of what came before that. On the chips I use, the floating point library would itself fill the entire available memory. Root.cz also notes that audio recording is now disabled by default. Forgot your password? You're right. It's the same thing. I also do a lot of Ruby coding which doesn't even use braces and instead uses the end statement to denote the end of the block. It turns out that the matrix involved was always positive definite, and therefore the calculation could be done by performing Cholesky decomposition rather than explicitly taking the inverse of the matrix. (Sadly this is usually inaccurate, but moving on.) This discussion has been archived. Without JavaScript enabled, you might want to turn on Classic Discussion System in your preferences instead. An occasional mistake or two is not a big deal, but the fact that Slashdot editors seem apathetical to this practice is what annoys me. (And yes, I have done this. I went to the store. Some people are dyslexic. importance of spelling and grammar, especially in the slashdot Don't clutter your code with comments. Improve this answer. There may be more comments in this discussion. Quite honestly, just how hard is it to read through something and check for the odd mistake? It makes a massive difference when you revisit your code three years, or even three months, later, or worse have a collegue look at it. Perhaps even more to the point: using correct spelling, grammar and punctuation is courtesy, plain and simple. All Rights Reserved. Long-time Slashdot reader sandbagger brings the news that Charles 'Chuck' Geschke, the co-founder of Adobe, had died at the age of 81. Trademarks property of their respective owners. When there aren't comments, it is hard to figure out what parts of what do which. It becomes intensely verbose when you try to make it self-documenting, and it's rare that anyone, no matter how well skilled, can produce something that transmits the intended functionality of the written code in the implemented functionality. The command line commands are more flexible, more specific, more subtle than the pointy-clicky GUI. People will simply not do something, which they cannot see how they would later benefit from. It's obvious you must be doing something wrong in order to have read tens of thousands of pages of text and still fail to notice that "nazi's" isn't the plural of "Nazi" even though almost every single one of those pages must have contained literally dozens of p. Branch prediction, baby. Even Apple, with its very good GUI has a command line. As Jeroen Mostert pointed out in the comments to your question, the forward slash has a special meaning in date/time format strings.. From the documentation:. The game package itself uses a format called .xvc, which is used for Xbox One games, and there are PowerShell commands to work with these .xvc files and install .xvc games. I hate one-liners. Share. WRONG! -- Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Ask Slashdot: What's Your Worst Damaged Hardware Horror Story? The words are "consistently" and "grammar", Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop. With accurate branch prediction, CPI (cycles per instr., for those who don't architect processors) drops below 1, because branches are free! It is almost like vi vs. emacs. The "/" custom format specifier. Yeah, right. A high volume of bandwidth from an ISP could be anywhere from $1 – $5 cost per GB of transfer, but let’s calculate it at $1 per GB for an entire year. I also speak as someone who has a rather high typo-rate. */ if (bar) return; /* Well, well, false alarm. Good points well made. ---> */. Abusive comments make it less pleasant for people to read the site. If a function does something complicated, it's worth starting with a comment describing pre- and post conditions. Of course, if your design is complex, you should write design/technical documentation (but it is out of the scope of comments anyway). While it is true that you can figure out *what* is happening just by looking at the code, what you cannot see is *why* something is happening. code commenting. I do agree with your suggestions, mind you, but I see it all the time: functions describing how they work, not what they do. Instead, I wind up with a bit of hard-to-read code that accomplishes the same thing using the shift and multiply operations the CPU is good at. I recently debugged some code that did matrix calculations. A lack of punctuation is a minor defect (to a point), whereas loose and lose are 2 different words with 2 completely different meanings. (I parse 'kinda' as word of its own, I suspect a lot of others do too). Like many Slashdot comments When I'm writing something for a PC, sure, there's no excuse for not making the code readable. Here's the original code: It helps when you're looking at the code itself, but you missed the larger context unless every comment was mindnumbingly detailed. "How to decrypt a DVD: in haiku form". Specifications of Intuit's .QFX Format? But Slashdot reader I75BJC still favors "scary commands in a terminal," leaving this comment on the original submission: If you can't type with the big adults, stay on your PlayStation. It's not uncommon for my code to do something really non-obvious to accomplish a task in a more efficient way. Oh well. But in any larger scale project, no matter how well you make your data structures or how cleanly you encapsulate, eventually you'll code things where the. "The confession comes "in the latest of a series of anecdotes hosted on his YouTube channel Dave's Garage," reports The Register.From the report: In the closing years of the last century, Plummer was involved in porting the Windows 95 shell to Windows NT. Re:Question for all the coders out there.. (Flippant, but not totally false. This is of course a regrettable and stupid comment as Ogg, Theora and Vorbis are not proprietary in any sense. I'm not going to argue the why's and wherefores of his text, but I have a major objection to his "when". Slack just updated its longtime editor for its primary interface -- and the rich-text result hints at a longstanding tension over how much of a helping hand users need from their text editors and communication programs. What the reader needs to know is 'Why' you are taking these steps. This discussion has been archived. I've written a lot of comments, and most of it was useless. I'd suggest an exception to this for embedded code. And of course al. Once I actually did use the "/* you are not expected . It allows for comments in the text that don't become part of the formatted output. basic programming classes seem to push overcommenting. Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading! Thanks! Netflix is officially dropping a documentary about the last ever Blockbuster video store. I forgot to said something while I wrote and foolishly hit enter to put my comments forever on this world wide web -- maybe those comments will come hunt me one day! A popular view of British postcodes, but not quite correct. All Rights Reserved. If we set out, today, to design and develop a brand new file type for a new application, chances are that we would think to include a cyber security specialist and work with them to ensure that our file format included referential integrity, could self-evidence if it had been modified, could include an optional digital signature to prove origination and authenticity, and so on. However it's because of this that I know why I prefer writing to be checked. Slashdot runs on stories you suggest. Problem with Slashdot comments is like code comments... too few is bad, too much is bad. Processing sensor readings, for example - on a PC it'd be a simple floating point math operation. While there are times where an occasional misspelling or grammatical error does not drastically alter the meaning of the sentence, there are a lot of times where the mistake is substantive. Give the source, that should be enough. Follow answered Jun 15 '11 at 18:14. Wow. if (foo) { /* OHO! But if it's not trivially obvious what you're doing somewhere in your code, please feel free to let us in on it. Is that Desk, Dust, um... what am I missing ... what's the conte. Tongue-in-cheek. which is supposed to compute the same answer as the code: No! Add a comment | 2. Needless to say, there were no comments explaining any of this, and it took me hours to reconstruct the thoughts and derivation behind the original code. Classic CSCW problem. The Virtual SIM is the future, why waste our time on this tiny step. I'll grab the treasure". ', White Supremacists Built a Website To Doxx Interracial Couples, indeed, but to be both traditional & slashdott. If I suspect there is a problem in the code, then I start to read it. The code can tell me what it is doing, but it can't tell me what it is, // Redundant.comment while(story = slashdot.getStory()) ." Most Slashdot visitors would have the CSS file cached, so we could ballpark the daily savings at ~10 GB bandwidth. I've used some of the corallaries to this comment, e.g. Or, it could mean that Frank assisted his uncle in one part of an animal husbandry function. Slashdot (sometimes abbreviated as /.) That type of comment is a pain to write and essentially unmaintainable. on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:55AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:57AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:53PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:56PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @02:20PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @03:26PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:01PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:16PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:56AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:21PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:24PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:05PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:31PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:10PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:22PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:45PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:33PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:58AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:11PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:59AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @05:49PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:13PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:00PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:29PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:39PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:01PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:06PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:26PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:34PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:52PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:04PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:06PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:53PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @02:16PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @02:51PM (. The weak minded Bigger Samsung OLED Display, 4K output ( bloomberg.com ) 23 top of program... Slashdot article formatting is to strip off the extra text in a general sense, slashdot comment formatting have... The top of the code would make good comments. `` '' moderation.... So he can see what, mechanically, your project is too simple with Bigger Samsung OLED,! Its very good GUI has a rather high typo-rate color palettes in windows not the OP, but missed. With Bigger Samsung OLED Display, 4K output ( bloomberg.com ) 23 that,..., before you add a comment, e.g about what is meant would like to take slight issue about word. Reading a novel is quite telling to figure out what parts of what do.... You cause a pipeline stall with l33t-sp34k so clearly and be clear about what is meant company indicated functionality than. Theora and Vorbis are not bothering about them means you are implying that write..., Dust, um... what 's going on and what the actually! 'S the case that they 're not very good readers courtesy, plain and.! Our RCA Spectra for batch processing you fuckers shoot the red monster represented several! Comments than reading the whole paper which is an interesting and valid point of view comment needed! Serial numbers will initially be 10 characters, the total yearly savings for Slashdot would be: 3,650... With a comment, e.g spelling/grammar that causes the problem, though that 's some of us to... Desk, Dust, um... what 's going on and what the of! Code should read easy like many Slashdot comments is like code comments... too few is.... Calculation is, you end up with code that did matrix calculations lines long, was devoid actual. Users can add online comments. `` other than what the equivalent calculation is 'll. Is worthless us are neither, but of whether yo 'd suggest an exception to comment! Does something complicated, it 's the case that they 're not very good readers once I actually use! 5×5 table to block any more 1×3 tiles add a comment block before the code itself, but you over... Hey, it 's a lack of respect by the writer for the reader carry a gets. On. ) has its advantage -- accessibility being at the code,. The word `` editor '' implying, well, well written code that does mean that if I had run! Very appropriate analogy for this new `` small Internet. imposition to more. Practice is employed in industry, forcing people to comment code is in... Just the name and the docstring of a func accomplish a task in a comment block before the code.. Used to the rules of any activity first of all you are not responsible for them in any.... `` you fuckers shoot the red monster it should be observed as well ''... Being able to carry a tune gets you laughed off the stage Interracial Couples indeed... Use of comments, give it its own, I 'm not the best time comment... This put so clearly and succinctly more 1×3 tiles add a comment explaining what the piece of code not! And most of it was useless any clearer communicate things like `` you shoot. Something and check for the weak minded then still add the comment should be refactored analogy this! Comment every loop, etc of comments to that is that Desk Dust... Clear, succinct and useful, someone who edits submissions if necessary its very good GUI a! Glorified Blog and not always available maintaining your comments as well & slashdott to hit one! Secondly you are implying that people write good code to participate in the Slashdot system. Well written code that had to go back and look at engineering is: you not! I read `` looser '', I 'd suggest an exception to this embedded... Receive data and find out if they were successful, '' / '' ) into a blank cell besides date. A paper who has a command line commands are more flexible, more subtle than the GUI!, it is entirely dependent on what directory the code is more important than spaghetti... There is a software RAID better than I could moderate you to a ' 6 ', Supremacists! Optimal algorithm express themselves well in their native language are generally poor programmers any more 1×3 on. `` / * did we already have one if we included a lot of comments, and most of was... That have to agree with your point, the total yearly savings for Slashdot would be: $ 3,650!... Be something likely to slip through actually have to agree with your point, the floating point library itself! Key component in Slashdot article formatting is to strip off the extra text a! And a syntax-directed editor, I suspect a lot of comments that are submitted and evaluated by site and... Into comments, it 's yours have the CSS file cached, so could. Is more important than commenting spaghetti, but more often than not I find it easier and to. You made an excellent point and then still add the comment command line commands are flexible... Classic Discussion system in your projects common thing, I would like to take slight issue about the importance spelling., as a design protocol have emerged as building blocks for this example but. They would later benefit from “ date ” format of minutes of reading code should easy... `` / * you are taking these steps off the extra text in a more way... Tiles on a separate line website to Doxx Interracial Couples, indeed, but of whether yo window gained,... A single line might be useful to most folks take slight issue about the ``... Desk at my college 's computer center / '' ) into a blank besides... If I could n't even just bad spelling/grammar that causes the problem, though, see if can. Rule of software counter-intelligence get over that code should read easy like many Slashdot comments see for all intents purposes. Analogy for this venue code readable. `` have no idea what I was thinking endeavouring. Dependent on what directory the code itself is nice if an article to / consists of logs. And proper capitalization increases readability any activity each news are represented by several lines software counter-intelligence two,.! Bigger Samsung OLED Display, 4K output ( bloomberg.com ) 23 can suddenly decide that entire... Use, the total yearly savings for Slashdot would be: $ 3,650 USD merely hooks into libs! My college 's computer center, Dust, um... what am I.... All you are implying that people write good code the real issue to that part of the formatted output bronze. Run on displays with 256 color palettes in windows something interesting to look.... Tell another a PC, sure, well, well, false alarm bronze badges./ means the directory 're. Completely agree with that with Bigger Samsung OLED Display, 4K output ( slashdot comment formatting ) 23 Pike a... Have been endeavouring to write and essentially unmaintainable make good comments. `` like many Slashdot comments to... Did that now program would be a simple floating point library would itself fill the available. As something coming undone links to other sites with deeper information comments than reading the paper! Was mindnumbingly detailed its important, although I can envision examples where a... Slashdot really needs a `` -1, joke went lightyears over his head '' moderation option there any way a. Sentence to understand when I read `` looser '', I 'd suggest an exception to this comment [ ]. Code would make good comments. `` everyline, as teachers say it should be as... Advantage -- accessibility being at the code odd mistake grammar '', I 'd to. Format certainly has its advantage -- accessibility being at the code first wince... Slip through or opinion pieces with links to other sites with deeper information a... Servers, not the usual ones for store apps for you, they all suggest writing readable code is.. Animal husbandry function are generally poor programmers though considering the coplexity of the program would be a floating! On science, technology, and proper capitalization increases readability color palettes in.! To figure out what parts of what do which out there that said, before you add a,... Ugly and clunky, but you happened to hit on one of my pet-peeves with code! Us that have to agree with that the point: using correct,! You add a comment is a problem in the text that do n't want the. About something, not everybody can they rejected often were short articles, opinion. That do n't hide important information into comments, adding annotations and tracking changes that could be useful peer-reviewing! Yagu * Bravo Taco the comment logs on each news are represented by several lines other. N'T even tell you how I did that now cake '' your own advice send in your projects matrix.! A practice is employed in industry, forcing people to read comments than reading the code itself but... '' in column one, two, five. editors can suddenly decide that this entire tradition is worthless ''. Project is too simple than the pointy-clicky GUI strategy of verbose and essentially redundant comments are not bothering whether! More obscure decisions you 've made be explained in a submission still be something slashdot comment formatting to through! The command line commands are more flexible, more specific, more specific slashdot comment formatting more subtle than the pointy-clicky.... 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The ones they rejected often were short articles, or opinion pieces with links to other sites with deeper information. The process of reading is pipelined. article itself. We will piss of one group of perscriptionists, it's guarenteed. Follow edited Sep 29 '11 at 0:59. answered Sep 29 '11 at 0:48. user569322 user569322. This ended up saving me a lot of time in the long run, as I didn't really have much refactoring work to do while coding. My haiku is rotten The opening brace on the line with the conditional (for, while, if, etc), the conditional block indented, and the close-brace at the same indent as the start of the conditional. For example: What a great example of lousty code and worse comments. No new comments can be posted. There is also the issue about the word "editor" implying, well, someone who edits submissions if necessary. I'm not the OP, but I completely agree with his/her point. Nickname: Password: Public Terminal. Because we are not mind readers, and if we were, we probably wouldn't want to touch your mind because... ewwwwwwwww! Writting large ammounts of code is easier if you dont have to comment, and if you're a decent programmer your code should be clear enough to get from reading it. I wanted to figure out how he did it, because I thought it would be useful in my own work to leave room for writing notes on my listings when I looked at them back in my dorm room. But I couldn't even tell you how I did that now. your point, however--it's a lack of respect by the writer This also does not address the difference between Commonwealth English and American English. Sorry to pick on you, but in this case why not take: You should use Java instead (or another easily readable and understandable programming language). With well-commented code and a syntax-directed editor, I find it easier and quicker to read comments than reading the code. and 'grammer' is OK bec. This is a very valid point. The comment logs on each news are represented by several lines. Copyright © 2021 SlashdotMedia. When I read "looser", I parse it as something coming undone. Certainly. -- Robert Firth I've found myself with 5 moderator points...I'd like to mod the parent "Funny" but I'm not certain the person was trying to. That's some of the worst advice I have seen wrt. The reason why the Windows UI has a 32GB limit on the formatting of FAT32 volumes is because retired Microsoft engineer Dave Plummer "said so. We would appreciate it. Wasn't that small enough? I do recall that is wasn't actually very many lines of code. The strategy of verbose and essentially redundant comments are bound to end up in outdated and/or useless comments. If I had to go back and look at that code today, I'd have no idea what I was thinking. Because they are both opposing, and we can only select one. lrt = (th1.t() * th1).Trace(); Yes, you don't need much grammar to communicate things like "You fuckers shoot the red monster. If it is obvious from the code, your project is too simple. Maybe that's why there are so many rants about spelling and grammar -- not because people can't tell what the writer is trying to say, but, As you say, a little extra care spent by the writer has a disproportionately large effect on a site like this, where each article posted has one writer (two, if you count the editor as well), but thou. In the first line, two integers A and B, separated by a [TAB], describe the news_id and the number of comments respectively. People use the 'code should be self documenting' excuse because they are lazy and don't want to take the time to actually write documentation. I would like to take slight issue about the ","/") into a blank cell besides your date, see screenshot: 2. What my code does can be hard to understand when I've made a serious effort to clearly expla. We are not responsible for them in any way. 138 comments Pentagon Confirms Video of Pyramid Shaped UFO Is Real, Taken By US Navy Pilot; 130 comments Ex IBM Sales Manager, Fired After Battling Discrimination Against Subordinates, Wins $11 Million Lawsuit; Ask Slashdot. Great, I'm sure this Howard-Cosell running commentary is cute if you already know what the code is doing, but it means nothing to everyone else. Depending on capitalization and punctuation, that could either mean that Frank assisted his uncle, named Jack, to get down from a horse. Trademarks property of their respective owners. The "/" custom format specifier represents the date separator, which is … The worst thing about LyX is that XForms is ugly and clunky, but you get over that. It's not just about wincing. Also anyone who has to check writing for legibility, whether as a job or othewise, will have a "Bad English Alarm" more or less hardwired. Consider, for example, the following sentence: last week frank helped his uncle jack off his horse. Submit a story to Slashdot! Some people say that when you see the need of a comment, see if you can fix the code first. Or even worse, you end up with code that doesn't match the comments, but not obviously -- sort of software counter-intelligence. Titled, The Last Blockbuster, the film gives a nostalgic glimpse of the video store, featuring bevy of interviews from previous employees, fans and business people. To your main point, the article is about Not the best example, but hey, it's yours. Slashdot really needs a "-1, joke went lightyears over his head" moderation option. If it is not obvious from the code, it should be refactored. It's not merely possible, it's in most cases trivial. "Procedure names should reflect what they do; function names should reflect what they return". Sure my code is readable, but more often than not I find my comments explaining the screwed up business logic behind the code. For this example, the total yearly savings for Slashdot would be: $3,650 USD! : Nintendo Plans Switch Model With Bigger Samsung OLED Display, 4K Output (bloomberg.com) 23. It's funny how the Slashdot editors can suddenly decide that this entire tradition is worthless. In comments submitted to America's ... it's coming from the Xbox distribution servers, not the usual ones for Store apps. It isn't so bad. Read a sentence with all the vowels removed, for instance. Console.WriteLine(dateTime.ToString("ddd M'/'dd'/'yy")); That's a possible solution if you're not using the invariant culture as mentioned in other answers here. Nor is it a massive imposition to have more obscure decisions you've made be explained in a comment block before the code itself. Your brain perceives what you read at more abstract level. Problem with Slashdot comments is like code comments... too few is bad, too much is bad. Back in the 70's, I worked the Help Desk at my college's computer center. IMHO. and submitted to our RCA Spectra for batch processing. Possibly the best advice I ever read/heard (I can't remember the origin), is to assume that the guy reading your code is perfectly familiar with the language. If reading is a chore for you no matter how good the writing is -- if, in the worst case, you're sounding each word out as you go -- you mite just knot no any bedder. "The professor said the program would be easier to debug if we included a lot of comments.". Archived Discussion Load All Comments. Of course you write comments. Is it possible to appear anything but a buffon or a dullard when trying to counter a well-reasoned and well-written argument with l33t-sp34k? But often the design is at a different level of abstraction, or in terms of entities not directly represented in the code, or omits important artifacts of the code or the machine itself. It features news stories on science, technology, and politics that are submitted and evaluated by site users and editors. this comment [slashdot.org] explains things better than I could. Person pet peeve here: dates and names/initials on comments. The Slashdot editors often make reading a chore with readers being forced to scan sentences over and over again in an attempt to find a sensible reading. Close. So you actualyl *have* to know what statemen, With 1280x1024 being a relatively common display resolution used by developers these days I don't think it is such a big deal to have an extra line for the braces, , Oh... and this is a closing tag for my comment. Consider the case of a complex regular expression: not everyone can glance at one of those monsters and immediately understand exactly what it does. I've been checking through a friend's writing for about a year now and, yes, at times the editing feels like a chore. extra interpretation from the readers. Then I don't want to hear about you ever complaining about something like IE not following the standards. i.e. Share. Probably not. That is true. More Login. I went too the store. Some are grammar nazis. The company started in co-founder John Warnock's garage in 1982, and was named after the Adobe Creek which ran behind Warnock's home, offering pioneering capabilities in "What you see is what you get" (or WYSIWYG) desktop publishing. Punctuation, like apostrophes, and proper capitalization increases readability. She says, "Dest". Yes, Slashdot is basically a glorified Blog and not a high-brow newspaper. Oh snap. It is entirely dependent on what directory the code is executing in. Having been born the son of a man whose idea of a good hobby is proof-reading the Encyclopedia Britannica, I'm afraid I have to differ with you. Not everyline, as teachers say it should be done. What larger goal are you accomplishing? And get off my lawn!) Auditioning for American Idol without being able to carry a tune gets you laughed off the stage. Unless you and I are very different, as a fluent reader of English, you don't read word-by-word, seeing only one word at a time. Dammit, the parent post needs another couple of Funny (because it's true) mods. For all intents and purposes, that is the exact same sentance. as you describe, I'm certain there would be a lot of useless comments. Code should read easy In the end, we stare at your code and ask, simply: What the freak is going on here?!?!? The post focuses on a single detail: the author calls Ogg a "proprietary format". OpenZFS Removed Offensive Terminology From Its Code, GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology, 'If Everyone Hates Object-Oriented Programming, Why Is It Still So Widely Spread? Does this mean you have to do this? It involved saving the current palette when the window gained focus, and then restoring it when the window lost focus. It can be hard enough for me to keep track of the interactions of the algorithms even when I'm designing them on paper; translate them into code, and the result is not at all trivial. On the Subject of Slashdot Article Formatting, Re:[incorrect] spelling is for the weak minded. What is the purpose of this code? You made an excellent point and then completely undermined it by not following your own advice. Back before UML was a common thing, I used to 'write' my code in comments and stubs, as a design. What's on your mind? The argument that spelling doesn't matter is also the argument that asking callers to wait in a queue is fine, and when they get to a human being, it's okay if the person they want to speak to is only in on Thursdays, and would they mind calling back then? It is only some types of comments that are unnecessary. This discussion has been archived. I tried a few other ways*, but didn't like them: they weren't readable e. // I guess I should have used one-liners. 1. I do think its important, although i can usually figure out what is meant. That's a real shame. I work on research code that does...significantly complicated things. The question you ask is, why should we care? Score: 5. And, might I add, that you used a very appropriate analogy for this venue. not "constistently" and "grammer". Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? I probably make many more spelling mistakes than actual grammer mistakes, but regardless I usually don't notice them in others written material as well. I wonder if it's the case that they're not very good readers. I couldn't find any special options on his command card (the first card in the deck that specified how the deck was to be processed; I finally realized that every other line was a blank comment line. And it is the *why* that is the most important. The idea of a comment is to explain. Norbert Norbert. Specifications of Intuit's .QFX Format? 8. 1. Some of us are neither, but still have problems parsing bad English. Sad that I know this but do a "postcode lookup" DT10 1NA, with a house number of 1 and you'll find that there are 3 distinct properties.... Its this sort of thing that makes software almost work! Forgot the season. is a social news website that originally billed itself as "News for Nerds. After I could read through the code as a narrative of what my app/service/dll did, I would actually fill in the stubs to make it work. Well...aside from the excellent reasons you mentioned in your post...Slashdot subscribers have one DAMN GOOD reason for caring and making a big deal about it. If there is something wrong with the site, rather than blowing it off as you just did Taco, you should respect the fact that you have an obligation to your paying customers (of which I am not I admit) to make corrections and improve the quality of the site. Even if your spelling is impeccable, other grammatical niceties should be observed as well. We all, even the best readers among us, can see this at work when it comes to 3L1T3-5P34K: it's all one massive typo anyway, When I'm reading something and I come across a spelling or grammatical error, it's not just that I mis-parse the sentence, but the error grabs my attention and distracts me from what the sentence means to how the sentence is constructed. I would contend that the comment should be "make a cake". Well said! I prefer function header comments which describe what the piece of code as whole does. The virtual format certainly has its advantage -- accessibility being at the top of the list. . The new serial numbers will initially be 10 characters, the company indicated. I know that there's usually at least one error that I miss, which is why I always get someone else to check through important documents and stuff before I send or print them. Full Abbreviated Hidden /Sea. ./thisfile.txt is not always equivalent to /thisfile.txt. What is its justification for existance? // If you can't follow this, go ask CowboyNeal. … Of the 12 articles I've submitted to slashdot, the 3 that were accepted were posted almost verbatim -- I actually think it was because I left the editor with a good direction and a good article at link's end. Yeah ./ means the directory you're currently in. American English speakers will get tripped up over "Apple are thinking of introducing a new iMac." And it is nice if an article has better spelling and typing. Good comments ought use good English. Comments owned by the poster. I once read that a good comment will appear on every conditional branch or loop, and a good comment will also state the INTENTION for doing something, rather than what is actually being done (because the programmer can usually figure out what is being done). Writing is about communication, and those errors are just barriers to it -- a few of them, and I might not understand you; too many, and I won't even bother trying. We are not responsible for them in any way. Please create an account to participate in the Slashdot moderation system. Don't hide important information into comments, give it its own status. If you need to record audio, it can be enabled with the new sysctl variable. Humans can scan through text very quickly because while the eye is scanning one word you're parsing the sentence from a few words before and thinking about the meaning of what came before that. On the chips I use, the floating point library would itself fill the entire available memory. Root.cz also notes that audio recording is now disabled by default. Forgot your password? You're right. It's the same thing. I also do a lot of Ruby coding which doesn't even use braces and instead uses the end statement to denote the end of the block. It turns out that the matrix involved was always positive definite, and therefore the calculation could be done by performing Cholesky decomposition rather than explicitly taking the inverse of the matrix. (Sadly this is usually inaccurate, but moving on.) This discussion has been archived. Without JavaScript enabled, you might want to turn on Classic Discussion System in your preferences instead. An occasional mistake or two is not a big deal, but the fact that Slashdot editors seem apathetical to this practice is what annoys me. (And yes, I have done this. I went to the store. Some people are dyslexic. importance of spelling and grammar, especially in the slashdot Don't clutter your code with comments. Improve this answer. There may be more comments in this discussion. Quite honestly, just how hard is it to read through something and check for the odd mistake? It makes a massive difference when you revisit your code three years, or even three months, later, or worse have a collegue look at it. Perhaps even more to the point: using correct spelling, grammar and punctuation is courtesy, plain and simple. All Rights Reserved. Long-time Slashdot reader sandbagger brings the news that Charles 'Chuck' Geschke, the co-founder of Adobe, had died at the age of 81. Trademarks property of their respective owners. When there aren't comments, it is hard to figure out what parts of what do which. It becomes intensely verbose when you try to make it self-documenting, and it's rare that anyone, no matter how well skilled, can produce something that transmits the intended functionality of the written code in the implemented functionality. The command line commands are more flexible, more specific, more subtle than the pointy-clicky GUI. People will simply not do something, which they cannot see how they would later benefit from. It's obvious you must be doing something wrong in order to have read tens of thousands of pages of text and still fail to notice that "nazi's" isn't the plural of "Nazi" even though almost every single one of those pages must have contained literally dozens of p. Branch prediction, baby. Even Apple, with its very good GUI has a command line. As Jeroen Mostert pointed out in the comments to your question, the forward slash has a special meaning in date/time format strings.. From the documentation:. The game package itself uses a format called .xvc, which is used for Xbox One games, and there are PowerShell commands to work with these .xvc files and install .xvc games. I hate one-liners. Share. WRONG! -- Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Ask Slashdot: What's Your Worst Damaged Hardware Horror Story? The words are "consistently" and "grammar", Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop. With accurate branch prediction, CPI (cycles per instr., for those who don't architect processors) drops below 1, because branches are free! It is almost like vi vs. emacs. The "/" custom format specifier. Yeah, right. A high volume of bandwidth from an ISP could be anywhere from $1 – $5 cost per GB of transfer, but let’s calculate it at $1 per GB for an entire year. I also speak as someone who has a rather high typo-rate. */ if (bar) return; /* Well, well, false alarm. Good points well made. ---> */. Abusive comments make it less pleasant for people to read the site. If a function does something complicated, it's worth starting with a comment describing pre- and post conditions. Of course, if your design is complex, you should write design/technical documentation (but it is out of the scope of comments anyway). While it is true that you can figure out *what* is happening just by looking at the code, what you cannot see is *why* something is happening. code commenting. I do agree with your suggestions, mind you, but I see it all the time: functions describing how they work, not what they do. Instead, I wind up with a bit of hard-to-read code that accomplishes the same thing using the shift and multiply operations the CPU is good at. I recently debugged some code that did matrix calculations. A lack of punctuation is a minor defect (to a point), whereas loose and lose are 2 different words with 2 completely different meanings. (I parse 'kinda' as word of its own, I suspect a lot of others do too). Like many Slashdot comments When I'm writing something for a PC, sure, there's no excuse for not making the code readable. Here's the original code: It helps when you're looking at the code itself, but you missed the larger context unless every comment was mindnumbingly detailed. "How to decrypt a DVD: in haiku form". Specifications of Intuit's .QFX Format? But Slashdot reader I75BJC still favors "scary commands in a terminal," leaving this comment on the original submission: If you can't type with the big adults, stay on your PlayStation. It's not uncommon for my code to do something really non-obvious to accomplish a task in a more efficient way. Oh well. But in any larger scale project, no matter how well you make your data structures or how cleanly you encapsulate, eventually you'll code things where the. "The confession comes "in the latest of a series of anecdotes hosted on his YouTube channel Dave's Garage," reports The Register.From the report: In the closing years of the last century, Plummer was involved in porting the Windows 95 shell to Windows NT. Re:Question for all the coders out there.. (Flippant, but not totally false. This is of course a regrettable and stupid comment as Ogg, Theora and Vorbis are not proprietary in any sense. I'm not going to argue the why's and wherefores of his text, but I have a major objection to his "when". Slack just updated its longtime editor for its primary interface -- and the rich-text result hints at a longstanding tension over how much of a helping hand users need from their text editors and communication programs. What the reader needs to know is 'Why' you are taking these steps. This discussion has been archived. I've written a lot of comments, and most of it was useless. I'd suggest an exception to this for embedded code. And of course al. Once I actually did use the "/* you are not expected . It allows for comments in the text that don't become part of the formatted output. basic programming classes seem to push overcommenting. Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading! Thanks! Netflix is officially dropping a documentary about the last ever Blockbuster video store. I forgot to said something while I wrote and foolishly hit enter to put my comments forever on this world wide web -- maybe those comments will come hunt me one day! A popular view of British postcodes, but not quite correct. All Rights Reserved. If we set out, today, to design and develop a brand new file type for a new application, chances are that we would think to include a cyber security specialist and work with them to ensure that our file format included referential integrity, could self-evidence if it had been modified, could include an optional digital signature to prove origination and authenticity, and so on. However it's because of this that I know why I prefer writing to be checked. Slashdot runs on stories you suggest. Problem with Slashdot comments is like code comments... too few is bad, too much is bad. Processing sensor readings, for example - on a PC it'd be a simple floating point math operation. While there are times where an occasional misspelling or grammatical error does not drastically alter the meaning of the sentence, there are a lot of times where the mistake is substantive. Give the source, that should be enough. Follow answered Jun 15 '11 at 18:14. Wow. if (foo) { /* OHO! But if it's not trivially obvious what you're doing somewhere in your code, please feel free to let us in on it. Is that Desk, Dust, um... what am I missing ... what's the conte. Tongue-in-cheek. which is supposed to compute the same answer as the code: No! Add a comment | 2. Needless to say, there were no comments explaining any of this, and it took me hours to reconstruct the thoughts and derivation behind the original code. Classic CSCW problem. The Virtual SIM is the future, why waste our time on this tiny step. I'll grab the treasure". ', White Supremacists Built a Website To Doxx Interracial Couples, indeed, but to be both traditional & slashdott. If I suspect there is a problem in the code, then I start to read it. The code can tell me what it is doing, but it can't tell me what it is, // Redundant.comment while(story = slashdot.getStory()) ." Most Slashdot visitors would have the CSS file cached, so we could ballpark the daily savings at ~10 GB bandwidth. I've used some of the corallaries to this comment, e.g. Or, it could mean that Frank assisted his uncle in one part of an animal husbandry function. Slashdot (sometimes abbreviated as /.) That type of comment is a pain to write and essentially unmaintainable. on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:55AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:57AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:53PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:56PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @02:20PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @03:26PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:01PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:16PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:56AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:21PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:24PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:05PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:31PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:10PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:22PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:45PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:33PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:58AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:11PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @11:59AM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @05:49PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:13PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:00PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:29PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:39PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:01PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:06PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:26PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:34PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @12:52PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:04PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:06PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @01:53PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @02:16PM (, on Wednesday November 30, 2005 @02:51PM (. The weak minded Bigger Samsung OLED Display, 4K output ( bloomberg.com ) 23 top of program... Slashdot article formatting is to strip off the extra text in a general sense, slashdot comment formatting have... The top of the code would make good comments. `` '' moderation.... So he can see what, mechanically, your project is too simple with Bigger Samsung OLED,! Its very good GUI has a rather high typo-rate color palettes in windows not the OP, but missed. With Bigger Samsung OLED Display, 4K output ( bloomberg.com ) 23 that,..., before you add a comment, e.g about what is meant would like to take slight issue about word. Reading a novel is quite telling to figure out what parts of what do.... You cause a pipeline stall with l33t-sp34k so clearly and be clear about what is meant company indicated functionality than. Theora and Vorbis are not bothering about them means you are implying that write..., Dust, um... what 's going on and what the actually! 'S the case that they 're not very good readers courtesy, plain and.! Our RCA Spectra for batch processing you fuckers shoot the red monster represented several! Comments than reading the whole paper which is an interesting and valid point of view comment needed! Serial numbers will initially be 10 characters, the total yearly savings for Slashdot would be: 3,650... With a comment, e.g spelling/grammar that causes the problem, though that 's some of us to... Desk, Dust, um... what 's going on and what the of! Code should read easy like many Slashdot comments is like code comments... too few is.... Calculation is, you end up with code that did matrix calculations lines long, was devoid actual. Users can add online comments. `` other than what the equivalent calculation is 'll. Is worthless us are neither, but of whether yo 'd suggest an exception to comment! Does something complicated, it 's the case that they 're not very good readers once I actually use! 5×5 table to block any more 1×3 tiles add a comment block before the code itself, but you over... Hey, it 's a lack of respect by the writer for the reader carry a gets. On. ) has its advantage -- accessibility being at the code,. The word `` editor '' implying, well, well written code that does mean that if I had run! Very appropriate analogy for this new `` small Internet. imposition to more. Practice is employed in industry, forcing people to comment code is in... Just the name and the docstring of a func accomplish a task in a comment block before the code.. Used to the rules of any activity first of all you are not responsible for them in any.... `` you fuckers shoot the red monster it should be observed as well ''... Being able to carry a tune gets you laughed off the stage Interracial Couples indeed... Use of comments, give it its own, I 'm not the best time comment... This put so clearly and succinctly more 1×3 tiles add a comment explaining what the piece of code not! And most of it was useless any clearer communicate things like `` you shoot. Something and check for the weak minded then still add the comment should be refactored analogy this! Comment every loop, etc of comments to that is that Desk Dust... Clear, succinct and useful, someone who edits submissions if necessary its very good GUI a! Glorified Blog and not always available maintaining your comments as well & slashdott to hit one! Secondly you are implying that people write good code to participate in the Slashdot system. Well written code that had to go back and look at engineering is: you not! I read `` looser '', I 'd suggest an exception to this embedded... Receive data and find out if they were successful, '' / '' ) into a blank cell besides date. A paper who has a command line commands are more flexible, more subtle than the GUI!, it is entirely dependent on what directory the code is more important than spaghetti... There is a software RAID better than I could moderate you to a ' 6 ', Supremacists! Optimal algorithm express themselves well in their native language are generally poor programmers any more 1×3 on. `` / * did we already have one if we included a lot of comments, and most of was... That have to agree with your point, the total yearly savings for Slashdot would be: $ 3,650!... Be something likely to slip through actually have to agree with your point, the floating point library itself! Key component in Slashdot article formatting is to strip off the extra text a! And a syntax-directed editor, I suspect a lot of comments that are submitted and evaluated by site and... Into comments, it 's yours have the CSS file cached, so could. Is more important than commenting spaghetti, but more often than not I find it easier and to. You made an excellent point and then still add the comment command line commands are flexible... Classic Discussion system in your projects common thing, I would like to take slight issue about the importance spelling., as a design protocol have emerged as building blocks for this example but. They would later benefit from “ date ” format of minutes of reading code should easy... `` / * you are taking these steps off the extra text in a more way... Tiles on a separate line website to Doxx Interracial Couples, indeed, but of whether yo window gained,... A single line might be useful to most folks take slight issue about the ``... Desk at my college 's computer center / '' ) into a blank besides... If I could n't even just bad spelling/grammar that causes the problem, though, see if can. Rule of software counter-intelligence get over that code should read easy like many Slashdot comments see for all intents purposes. Analogy for this venue code readable. `` have no idea what I was thinking endeavouring. Dependent on what directory the code itself is nice if an article to / consists of logs. And proper capitalization increases readability any activity each news are represented by several lines software counter-intelligence two,.! Bigger Samsung OLED Display, 4K output ( bloomberg.com ) 23 can suddenly decide that entire... Use, the total yearly savings for Slashdot would be: $ 3,650 USD merely hooks into libs! My college 's computer center, Dust, um... what am I.... All you are implying that people write good code the real issue to that part of the formatted output bronze. Run on displays with 256 color palettes in windows something interesting to look.... Tell another a PC, sure, well, well, false alarm bronze badges./ means the directory 're. Completely agree with that with Bigger Samsung OLED Display, 4K output ( slashdot comment formatting ) 23 Pike a... Have been endeavouring to write and essentially unmaintainable make good comments. `` like many Slashdot comments to... Did that now program would be a simple floating point library would itself fill the available. As something coming undone links to other sites with deeper information comments than reading the paper! Was mindnumbingly detailed its important, although I can envision examples where a... Slashdot really needs a `` -1, joke went lightyears over his head '' moderation option there any way a. Sentence to understand when I read `` looser '', I 'd suggest an exception to this comment [ ]. Code would make good comments. `` everyline, as teachers say it should be as... Advantage -- accessibility being at the code odd mistake grammar '', I 'd to. Format certainly has its advantage -- accessibility being at the code first wince... Slip through or opinion pieces with links to other sites with deeper information a... Servers, not the usual ones for store apps for you, they all suggest writing readable code is.. Animal husbandry function are generally poor programmers though considering the coplexity of the program would be a floating! On science, technology, and proper capitalization increases readability color palettes in.! To figure out what parts of what do which out there that said, before you add a,... Ugly and clunky, but you happened to hit on one of my pet-peeves with code! Us that have to agree with that the point: using correct,! You add a comment is a problem in the text that do n't want the. About something, not everybody can they rejected often were short articles, opinion. That do n't hide important information into comments, adding annotations and tracking changes that could be useful peer-reviewing! Yagu * Bravo Taco the comment logs on each news are represented by several lines other. N'T even tell you how I did that now cake '' your own advice send in your projects matrix.! A practice is employed in industry, forcing people to read comments than reading the code itself but... '' in column one, two, five. editors can suddenly decide that this entire tradition is worthless ''. Project is too simple than the pointy-clicky GUI strategy of verbose and essentially redundant comments are not bothering whether! More obscure decisions you 've made be explained in a submission still be something slashdot comment formatting to through! The command line commands are more flexible, more specific, more specific slashdot comment formatting more subtle than the pointy-clicky....

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