Another thing to consider is how you run the patch. PCCA Once the bucket becomes filled, the water is used repeatedly by dipping it out and into the funnel. 3. Always use the same amount and type of cleaning solution to stay consistent. As I said, it varies. It might take 2 minutes or it might take 20. Definitely got my wheels turning as I've never used any kind of barrel cooler or cooling method other than time between shots. If the shape of the cheekrest on a stock interferes with the taller ears of a rabbit-ear bag, an owl-ear bag is used. We have experienced flooding in the areas. No, your very first shot is perfect then, after a pause to observe results, displace, and prepare to fire yet again, you take another cold-barrel shot. During the 1950s, National Rifle Association personnel often fired three-shot groups and allowed the barrel to cool down one minute between each shot. IMPORTANT SPECIFICS k, this is a very old school approachwhen I get to the range I stick the rifle sitting muzzle up in the gun rack. Thanks for all the replies and for all the, uh.er..wisdom. In the summer with ambient temps of 75 or higher, I would typically wait 5-7 minutes. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Chamber Chiller - BETA-60 AA Chamber Chiller Version 3 2019, The Original Gun Barrel Cooler | Area 1 Sports, Rifle Barrel Cooler Performance Flow Test and Comparison. I have read alot about letting the barrel cool, and wondering what is considered cool. the fuel tank. Rifle is the Ruger American Predator with Leupold vxIII 3.5-10. Also, a heated barrel may warp a bit against a snug fitting stock, and result in shots stringing, usually vertically but possibly to one side if the stock presses against one side of the barrel. I have never done anything except let it sit to cool or clean the bore. Joseph Von Benedikt visits with Aaron Oelger from Hodgdon about the unprecedented demand on the shooting supply industry. Load Development - barrel cooling Guns & Ammo Discussion. between sets. You have not found your best load yet. Don't laugh it works awesome! A one-way rather mechanism (now broken, unfortunately) spins the fan when the bolt cycles, pushing air into a barrel shroud similar to that of a Lewis gun. I started by going up and down with short strokes like I was cleaning the gun. Rfurman24 did a thorough comparison of several, including the Coleman mattress pump. JavaScript is disabled. Second, three rounds isn't a group. This page was generated at 08:23 AM. This raises the question: How do you cool a barrel quickly enough so that you arent costing yourself money and trigger time? The pump is small so it doesnt take up much room in my shooting bag. Regardless of the time of year, the real trouble spot is a narrow gap in the left-side tree line at 215 yards. Also make sure that the scope is not canted. Here is an example of what I believe to be stringing as a result of barrel heating. JavaScript is disabled. I am only concern because this is my hunting rifle and it is the first shot that will count. Pacific, Mo, 3-5-2023 Sunday, 10am - The Club Rendezvous Another Barrel Cooling Thread But I had to, couldn't help myself UPS has officially stopped shipping guns? How it behaves as it heats up might be worth knowing. Though you won't want to touch it or the gas block! All Sgt. From ambient barrel temperature to temperatures skin burning hot. I don't think it would be any different than a steel barrel. 2. Blowing down the barrel from the muzzle end is strictly forbidden. There should be nothing that would confine the rifle "in place" on top of the chunk. No but the design doesnt make any sense at all were trying to cool the throat. First, relay shooters shall remove their equipment from the loading area immediately after the 10th target is fired. If there happened to be a hot ember in the bore from the previous shot, this could cause the next powder load to ignite when its poured down the barrel. When not at his press or the range he can be found chasing mule deer around the Rocky Mountains. One shot about every 2 or 3 minutes. Ample time is given for second relay contestants to set their equipment. Meet the Members. I wish i could have my car closer to the shooting station! MSRP: $38.60 www.chamberchiller.com, This is a very compact cooler to add to your range bag. My homemade "barrel cooler" consists of a section of plastic tubing from the hardware store that measures 0.430 inch in diameter. 4. I've gone as long as 15 though. In this comparison the heat transfer rate will be directly related to the mass air flow rate since the cooling medium(ambient air) and the barrel will be the same. As expected from MagnetoSpeed, the RifleKuhl is engineered to the hilt. Let me know what you think. I've run twenty fast rounds then gone prone and slow and noticed a big difference - POI creeping noticeably up the target. A custom Remington Model 700 in .338 Lapua I recently shot is a good example. But riding a bull doesnt mean youll completely avoided the perils of your powders deflagration. Joseph VonBenedikt is with Joel Hodgdon to talk about the improved accuracy and long-range potential of the already reliable Core-Lokt ammo line. One fouling shot is then fired, followed by shots for record. I also limit the number of rounds to 30 to 45. rob01, if you shot that sequence with something like a 220 swift or 22-250AI running stout loads here in kalifornia on a 100* day your throat would no longer be in the same place. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. MSRP: $59.95 www.area1sports.com/, Caldwell is an AR specialist, so its barrel cooler device has a number of things going for it. Not sure if this was entirely due to waiting between shots. All PCCA will be the property of and be provided on loan from the match director and reasonably identical. Its cheap and it works. Another heavy barrel Remington 700 in .22 CHeetah heats up very fast: After three quickly fired rounds accuracy degrades. 30-40* weather, I like to wait about 3 minutes. It works ok, other than the heckling I get from Range Officers. That protocol has since changed to five-shot groups with no barrel cooling between shots. How long should a barrel cool between shots when group testing. It wouldn't be to hard to make a dummy case with a barb for a hose to pump the water from the chamber to the muzzle and return it to a tank to recycle the water. I think I'll take a thermocouple and see how fast the heat dissipates once i get my carbon barrels up and running. Tip #2 - Clean Bore Between Shots. Shoot a second shot within say 30 seconds. The cooling device for artillery barrels located in the barrel between the projectile and the propellant charge, characterized in that it has the ability to form a cooling thin sublimation coating on the inner surface of the barrel during firing.2. Eye and ear protection are required. IF WE LIE TO THE GOVERNMENT IT'S A FELONYWHEN THEY LIE TO US IT'S POLITICS. The magnet helps keep it in place when I stand the rifle up in the shade of the nearby tree or against the tire of my truck while I make notes in my logbook or check out the target. Lunchbox27 Professional whisky drinker. I have seen benchrest shooters at the range using air mattress pumps to blow cooling air through their barrels between shots. Please leave the grounds in good condition and place all trash in provided receptacles. Alvin C. York Memorial Shoot is designed after matches held by Sgt. If a big-game rifle is capable of keeping three bullets close to or inside an inch at 100 yards, I could not care less about its five-shot accuracy. Adding together the score of all ten targets to determine the total score, with the lowest total score determined the winner. In Houston, ambient temp. RIFLES Don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to make sense to me. All rifles must be carried muzzle up to be above the competitor's heads. Ideally, you'll be out at the range when temperatures are fairly close to the average when you are hunting. Keep me cool also. BarrelCool | Shooting accessories for accuracy, reloading, and hunting. The CO2 tank idea is compelling. We do not desire to have the barrel material holding the heat. If the flags indicate a change in condition before all the rounds of a string are fired, I stop shooting and squeeze off the remaining shots in the group only when my chosen condition returns. Ordering a custom barrel, what do I need to know? One can only assume his point was that unless in extreme circumstances everything's about the same but this is with the M24 which has a relatively thick barrel. http://barrelcool.com/product/barrel-temperature-strips/#:~:text=Outside%20barrel%20temperature%20can%20be,life%2C%20and%20shoot%20smaller%20groups. Thank you in advance, smoker I let it sit like that while I'm setting up the bench. How many shots between cleanings for a ML? This is a very compact cooler to add to your range bag. I believe you can never go wrong with 1 minute. Generally, it makes a barrel shootable in fewer than 10 minutes. In energy storage applications the energy density relates the energy in an energy store to the volume of the storage facility, e.g. The front sight may be a blade, pinhead, post, or barleycorn. If I can't stand to touch the barrel for 10 sec its too hot. I usually let the barrel cool between shots. This works especially well with an AR-15 wearing a handguard with openings over its entire surface. I want to sight my rifle in for the first cold barrel shot how long should I let it cool between shots at the range. A sporter barrel is a rifle barrel that is designed with a taper from a medium thickness in the barrel near the chamber, transitioning to a lighter thickness near the crown. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. of Israeli Defense Forces, joins David Fortier for an exclusive interview for Shotgun News. This one should be a pretty simple test but feel free to ask any questions. , Preregistrations will be $40.00 registrations on-site (those not received before 03/13/21 will be $50.00). Im not sure what youre asking? If the cartridge a particular rifle is chambered for is available with match bullets, I try to shoot at least one of those loads. The various styles of leather bags I have mentioned are shown in the Sinclair International catalog. The barrel is immediately cooled down with absolutely no harm to it. But if you're planning on hunting in thick shrubbery or woodlands with your rifle, an 18-inch barrel should be enough. Maybe Im the odd one but when shooting groups I want to know what the barrel is doing from cold to hot and without breaking my position. Remember to do whichever method the same way every time. Back when I was into 3 Gun competition, some stages required emptying several AR-15 magazines. The ambient air is humid, has water present, even if you don't blow through the tube. 10-26-2014, 09:20 AM #6 scope eye Status MAYBE pushing air through the bore has SOME merit but that's about it. The one I use most is called the Generation II AP Windage Top. It is about as steady as can be. I guess I am asking for a sanity check. I keep a Thermos of ice water, a six ounce squirt bottle, bore guide, cleaning rod and patches handy. Shoot it until its hot then let it cool. AC adapted mattress pump I had at my house, connected with a sock to AC in car (gets rid of moisture) by paper clamps, sprayer hose connected to bore guide! New here so I'll say Hello all. They were pretty stout loads to boot. MSRP: $59.99 www.magnetospeed.com, There are two different models to fit the type of gun you shoot: a Magwell Chamber Chiller for AR-style rifles and an ejection port unit, which is better suited for bolt-actions. How many shots before letting the barrel cool. It all depends on environmental conditions. The article originally appeared in the June 2019 issue of Gun Digest the Magazine. Days Inn Princeton, https://facebook.com/events/s/prairie-state-longrifle-show/6359596334069656/, March 18, 20238:00 am - 9:00 am The adjustment screws will be covered with either wax or tape. I used the mattress pump w/ 1 foot of surgical tubing and it worked on a 338BAR I was doing load testing for before elk season once. Shooting in AZ in the summer gives me a unique perspective on barrel cooling. I cut it off twice and it's still too short! If the barrel is warm, no condensation in the barrel, as the air will heat up and the RH will go down. The cooler that moves the most air down the barrel will be the cooler that removes the most heat. A rifle with a synthetic or metal stock and stainless-steel barrel can be held muzzle-down over the bucket and water poured down the outside of its barrel. I actually have two one with a .223 case for bores up to .35 caliber and another with a .308 case for larger calibers. This is a legal requirement. General. Is that 5 min between shots, Can I shoot 2 or 3 before needing it to cool? Made a duct with cardboard and tape, and stuck it on the end of the barrel. Place the rifle in a rest so that the muzzle is slightly downward, stick the nozzle into the. Does that make since that it would do that. Range rules for the Sergeant Alvin C. York Memorial shoot Pall Mall Tennessee He takes a pile of guns and components to range and spends the day. If shooting a match, I dont want to have to pull a wagon for my barrel cooler. Rumors have flown at the trap ranges about grizzled, blue-rock busters cooling their barrels on hot afternoons via a vat of water. I hate sitting around when I could be shooting. Don't worry about cooling the barrels. I wanted to add some additional numbers that I think are important. Ozark's Back Porch. Water off, couple dry patches, and he was done. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. (A small household throw rug placed atop the bench is easier on a gun's finish and the shooter's elbows than bare concrete.). Get the latest news and reviews from Gundigest.com. I understand this is an old thread, but want to reply anyway, SOCIALIST CONTROLLED TERRITORY OF NEW YORK, Temperature Gun 50 C 900 C Infrared Digital Non Contact IR Laser Thermometer | eBay. Shot one (presuming a fouled bore) hits the same place as shot 10. J2Shooter, do you have a link to where you got the stick on thermometers ? Seemed as though Jeff and others preferred it for the magnet, battery life and compactness.albeit with the lower amounts of air volume. Among the more interesting features is a 50-micron replaceable filteranother level of protection from gunk in your bore. What is the purpose of the round being developed. The universal Original Barrel Cooler fits the bill perfectly for a hot barrel, since it cools the barrel from the inside-out and can reduce your wait time between shots up to 60%. MSRP: $47.99 www.caldwellshooting.com. Shaped and colored to match an NRA-certified empty chamber flag, it works away when there's a cease-fire. Mikey Hartman, Lt. Col. Kalamazoo County Expo Center, https://facebook.com/events/s/kalamazoo-living-history-show-/5632545256791676/, March 25, 20237:00 am - 5:00 pm For instance, if you use a sandbag, it should move freely on top of the chunk. I do think some of our members would be interested in your CO2 idea especially in hotter climates. You'll be able to shoot dozens of shots 2 or 3 per minute or faster and they'll cluster evenly about point of aim. Placing it on a brick bag elevates it to the proper position. Has anyone tested the pro version of the chamber chiller? I don't shoot benchrest but do get a gereat deal of satisfaction trying to wring out every bit of accuracy I can. No loaded rifle should be left unattended. I would never put anything down my bore at a match especially water. Wow! JavaScript is disabled. Step 2. From a safety standpoint running a damp cleaning patch down the barrel between shots is a good idea. I don't have anything that uses them anymore, don't have any in the house, and sure as heck don't want to buy a charger and a bunch of rechargeable ones. The 20-50 degrees in decreasing delta t that the 115 degree air causes is very low compared to the delta t caused by the combustion of the cartridges adding heat to the barrel. Generally a boon downrange as a wind indicator, it plays havoc in front of your objective lens when emitted by gun metal. Tree lines border both sides of the private shooting range I use, and while the trees do a fairly good job of reducing wind velocity, their foliage is not dense enough to block the wind entirely. I have used cold wet rags on my varmint rigs with good results. It may not display this or other websites correctly. While a carbon barrel will not hold as much heat as a steel barrel they will give up heat quicker. Those were the days when most ranges didnt have an hourly rate akin to electricians, dentists and ladies-of-the-night. Thinking of load development and also cooling the barrel between rounds of competition, I followed suit. The rifle is supported at the rear by either of two types of leather sandbags. Also, they would sight there guns in down south where the ambient temp. This is the thread to ask questions or discuss this barrel Cooler review. Thanks for putting this together. No in-line actions or thumbhole stocks will be allowed. Learn more here: http://bit.ly/1G7xXag. Using water seems to be to much trouble unless your a dead ass serious target shooter. I'll look into that. Don't worry about cooling the barrels. Muzzleloader Forums. How much time between shots when shooting for groups? #2. Remington has never put a smokeless capable barrel for their muzzleloaders. Don't get the barrel much if any below ambient temperature. In the spirit of sportsmanship, these should be as small as possible not to take up excess space on the line. The higher the energy density of the fuel, the more energy may be stored or transported for the same amount of volume. Due to safety concerns, shooter registration must be limited to 185 shooters. Second, relay competitors; do not place your equipment in the loading area before the end of the first relay. I don't think this has any thing to do with barrel being warm at all. We have shot 20 rounds in 60 seconds at matches and then packed up and head to another stage. Have any of you tried any methods to speed the cooling of your barrel? They must have a "U," "V," or rectangular opening, as wide at the top as any part of the notch. We will not turn this thread into a thermodynamics argument like the other forum does. Membership Registration I will try to check some temperature changes just to get a feel for how effective the best one actually is. Your membership registration of $35.00 covers both your $5 membership dues and your $30.00 shooting registration fee. All Shooting Times subscribers now have digital access to their magazine content. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Please bring your own target stand. Leave the bolt open, pick up your brass, make entries in your range log, change or write on your targets, talk to your shooting buddies, Clean the bore, etc, till the barrel cools enough to shoot again. On the exterior it has proven to be no issue. For me it depends on the cartridge. Get the 76th edition of the World's Greatest Gun Book. Barrels are not heat treated like knife blades, or bolt lugs and receiver seats, but, I . Enhance barrel cooling by using BarrelCool. Learn how your comment data is processed. March 25, 2023 For if it prosper, none dare call it treason. However, because of insurance purposes, it has become necessary that we require all vendors (except for those consigned by the organizers) to be registered shooters, whether you choose to shoot or not. March 18, 20238:00 am - March 19, 20233:00 pm For cold bore accuracy testing, I can wait 3hrs between shots. The Sgt. Not only do those shooting in hot and humid states have to deal with the hot sun, the ambient temperature alone can keep a barrel from cooling down properly between rounds. The level of accuracy may not be as good as I will eventually achieve through trial-and-error handloading for a specific rifle, but it gives me something to shoot for and to possibly improve on. (Ret.) dvdstdg brings up a good point - shoot when it's hot and take notes. | I can also use a air conditioned environment to place to them in while rotating through a session. so you know what to expect should you have to use it for it's intended purpose. Generally, four classes of conditions exist within a rifle receiver when firing numerous shots. a handle. People worry way too much about barrel cooling. But I like go out 5 days in a row and shoot one round at 300 yards. Regardless of whether water is poured on the outside or through the bore, in no way does it harm the barrel. The slow way of accomplishing this is to sit and twiddle thumbs until the barrel is no longer hot. SAFETY FIRST! But do you know how to properly use them? Given the high energy density of gasoline, the exploration of alternative media to store the energy of powering a car, such as . The nozzle is customizable to the chamber length of your rifle, guaranteeing that the unit pumps air where its needed most. I'm not sure it really cooled back down until it was in the air conditioned car, "When you are shooting to test "best groups" how long do you wait between shots to ensure the barrel isn't heating too much?". When in a match there is no time to wait and cool your barrel so why do it when group testing. Great for cold bore mapping, competition shooting, or any day at the range. Either waythe dunk tank or dropping trowit seems barbaric. Do you just run it for a certain time, or is there a more specific method? Never did it myself but the theory is sound. Anything that cools a barrel too quickly upon application will cause a barrel to warp because it won't be consistent slow radiant air cooling all over the barrel surface. A required safety meeting held at 7:30 AM Central Standard Time for ALL CONTESTANTS Before the first relay. It don't think it would hurt if I don't keep a steady blast, besides a tank doesn't hold a lot of air. Too much thermal differential can give you a thermal shock to your barrel which can induce warpage You must log in or register to reply here. Well done "J2shooter" Nicely managed, but which barrel cooler are you actually testing there please? The shot at the top center is after I adjusted the sight with a cool barrel. If the rifle is headed to Africa, it gets shot on paper from the standing position with its forearm resting on shooting sticks. Pictures. That's from a warmed up barrel, for hot group shooting. One Remington 700 in .223 has a 26" heavy barrel. And if so, how much are they reporting? Shot 3, 5 shot groups, letting the barrel cool between groups. As to rate of fire, I think if you keep it under 10 rounds per minute average you'll find that the barrel is only tollerably hot. I rifle built and assembled correctly will continue putting rounds into the true group size until it melts. You are using an out of date browser. I use a matress inflater, clear 1/2 ose and the big nozle from my boreguide I never use. I use a battery powdered fan blowing on my barrel and sometime take a cooler with some ice water and dip a wash cloth in it and wipe my barrel down. If the pump was supported above a pool of ice water in a cooler it would work even better if it was hot outside. Get 12 Issues a year of the country's best firearms writing. Subscriber Services. Cooling the barrel between shot strings. Founded by Frank Galli in 2000, Snipers Hide has been offering informational videos, podcasts, and other support to its users in one location. Alvin C York Memorial shoot staff are volunteers. The sausage-shaped bag measures 4 inches in diameter by 8 inches long, is filled with lead shot, and weighs 25 pounds. Barrels are meant to be shot. The hotter the barrel gets, the longer it takes to cool off. I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death but would really appreciate your patience and information. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Injection moulding (U.S. spelling: injection molding) is a manufacturing process for producing parts by injecting molten material into a mould, or mold.Injection moulding can be performed with a host of materials mainly including metals (for which the process is called die-casting), glasses, elastomers, confections, and most commonly thermoplastic and thermosetting polymers. I just wait a few minutes. Then the barrel tenon shoulder will bear tight all the way around. The goal is not to have a clean bore, but it is to have the same amount of fowling in the bore for each shot. Build Your Rifle/Sabotless TIPS/ Links. Although hearing and vision protection are strongly encouraged, the use of these items will be determined by the individual contestant in a junior contestant event. I will be buying one promptly. Steve. So, if you pitch .50 BMG, you have a fan thats up to the job. Bull? I was always told when 2 grouop and one wont,,keep looking for another bullet or load. In contrast to that Model 700 is a recently tested 1940s-vintage Winchester 94 in .32 Special. It has a huge fan, so it pulls in a good deal of air. For me usually 5 - 10 min. I also try to do load development in moderate temps unless I feel it needs to be otherwise. The sissy bag is too thick to place between the shooter's shoulder and the butt of a riflestock, so it is positioned on its side. "Business/Sunday go-to-meetin" for both men and ladies and "Work/Everyday" clothing for ladies and gentlemen. Size, weight, and battery size and life mean something to me for my needs. For instance, the .308 barrel that normally gives 4000 accurate rounds should now easily provide 5500 accurate rounds. cal or less). There are several methods that can be employed to cool barrels quickly such as using fans, ice water, cold packs, wet towels, etc. I bench shoot and i still wait inbetween shots. And its rechargeable. How do ya'll long range target shooters cool your barrel between shot strings other than just waiting? The simplest thing is a pumpup garden sprayer with plain ol water and a nozzle to fit the chamber and run water through the barrel for about 15 sec. A varmint rifle wearing a Harris folding bipod is an example. In the summer with ambient temps of 75 or higher, I would typically wait 5-7 minutes. We have shot 20 rounds in 60 seconds at matches and then packed up and head to another stage. The correct placement of wind flags will vary among shooting ranges, but since most of my accuracy testing is done at the same range, I know exactly where they need to go there. Thank you for your cooperation and Good Luck I have done this many times on various barrels without negative effects. Operated with a 12V battery. (The high pitched whine sounds like a vaccuum cleaner) But, being an engineer, and wanting to build a better mousetrap, I attempted to improve on this idea. When accuracy testing, the author always starts with factory loads. A few short puffs spaced out should work. This rifle was most likely made in 1915 or 1916 with an eye to a military light machine gun or automatic rifle contract - which never happened. Scores determined by measurement from the center of the hole where the ball passed through the target to the center of the X. Id say daylight becomes a factor at that point. Oh PS to your question I stick to 30 seconds with full grip on the barrel. I wanted to see which brand would group the best. Waiting ten minutes between shots didn't do much for me, and really ate up my time. Accuracy will become more consistant with a rythem, as the barrel harmonics, and chamber pressures will be more consistant. BarrelCool Given that a hot barrel eats away at accuracy, Barrel Cool's device is a perfect addition to a range bag. Shooting a rifle on paper the way it will likely be shot during a hunt reveals my accuracy with it in the field compared to shooting it from the bench. Wind is blocked even less after they shed their leaves during winter. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. VENDERS ~ PLEASE NOTE!!! Like it has been said all my hunting rifles get shot for 2 shot groups with no extended range sessions. No difference. Rather than placing the chronograph atop the bench, I place it on a stool beside the one I am sitting on. This process will take you a while because you're cleaning your rifle between each shot. Switching tops takes only a bit longer than it took you to read this sentence. No double rest allowed the contestant's body must support the butt end of the rifle. Please note!!! Yesterday, I was trying to compare 2 different types of commercial ammo. Much harder to be consistent with this method. I do this because factory technicians are quite good at developing loads capable of delivering levels of accuracy ranging from acceptable to excellent whenfired in a large number of mass-produced rifles from various manufacturers. Rather, it lies on its side with one end resting firmly against the rifle butt. He settled on a 200 cu ft CO tank. The target was mounted horizontal as shown and there are 5 shots in the string. Because this rifle takes longer to heat up and is inherently stiffer to begin with, whip and mirage are less of a concern. CHUNK / BARREL REST Certainly, a barrel cooler is a bit of a luxury, but whether youre an F-class shooter or just working up a load, its a luxury worth having. Jokes aside, I like the Magneto speed barrel cooler we know it works and fits in a shirt pocket, and I am still on the first set of Batteries. Learn the difference between revolvers and semi-auto pistols and what makes them different. The York Shoot is held on Tennessee State property, and the display of alcoholic beverages will not be tolerated. . I have tried water an it is more of a pain than I am willing to deal with.

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